Please Log In or Register
Guest

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search:

— Forum Scope —



— Match —



— Forum Options —




Wildcard usage:
*  matches any number of characters    %  matches exactly one character

Minimum search word length is 4 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

Topic RSS
SolForge Tier List: How the Cards Match Up
Hoywolf

Forgeborn Mystic

Backer

Members
Forum Posts: 1889
Member Since:
September 10, 2012
San Francisco
Offline
February 6, 2013
7:38 pm
21

Racecar0 said

Wolffgang said
I don't think a tier list will work as one specific list. I think you would be better off shifting it into category tier lists such as:

Lane Pressure, Late Game, Lane Control, Passive Damage etc. and comparing things at how good they are in their current role.

Kinda like comparing a League of Legends support to a carry. You can say the carry is "better" but you still need the support.

 

Interestingly, though, if you look at LoL tier lists, the top players don't break it down in terms of category tier lists either.  You don't see a tank, melee dps, support, etc. list breakdown.  Usually, they're all lumped together into one list.  Now, I'm not saying this is right or wrong, but if we're going to compare to LoL then we can draw a full comparison to how people are doing their rankings within that game, too.

 

 

One thing to note though in LoL is that from champions can play a dual role, which sometimes can be part of the reason for having 1 list. Support can sometimes be mid (aka zyra), etc. There is a separate list for Jungling too.

At the moment we dont have good categories to even place the cards into, Magic uses the BREAD categories, maybe when we have more cards we will be able too.

p.s. BREAD is B – bomb, r – removal, e – evasion, a – aggro/attack, and d – defense. we dont have evasion creatures here in solforge though

 

Forge Watch: SolForge News, Strategy, and Community Highlights
Follow us on Twitter and Like us on Facebook - In Game Name: Hoywolf

 

Wolffgang

Forgeborn Elder

Backer

Members
Forum Posts: 526
Member Since:
January 21, 2013
EST (GMT - 5)
Offline
February 6, 2013
7:40 pm
22

grim2103 said

Thechynd said

I was surprised how low you rank grove huntress. Rather than thinking of it as a 4/3, 8/6, 12/10 creature that boosts something, I prefer to think of it as a 5/4, 11/9, 17/15 that has the option to donate some of its stats to other creatures if necessary. Once you get past rank 1 those are actually rather good stats. In particular, she provides an exception to your claim that a fangwooded hydra 2 has more health than any rank 2 creature's attack and with 9 health will even be able to survive against it. And when you do use her ability even +1/+1 can change the outcome of a battle (particularly if you and your opponent are playing some of the same cards) while +3/+3 can alter almost any battle between creatures of equal rank (excepting scorchmane 3, chrogias 3 and a well fed devourer).

I also think earthshaker is a better card than you give it credit for, though that may be due to me valuing structures more than you do. Move helps a lot, both for allowing you to threaten multiple structures at once so your opponent has a harder time protecting them all and for denying your opponent the ability to use its relatively low power to set up a favourable trade.

I agree with your Grove Huntress explanation, and I have undervalued with it, since I haven't playtested it much yet, and I haven't seen anyone else use it well in all the games I collected data for my previous article on the forums. I will consider this, and she will likely move up in the next update.

 

Rumbling Earthshaker I still don't agree with, because he can't make a threat himself as effectively as other cards, and here I thought I was the only one who was obsessed with structures on the forums ;p. Most all my decks are focused on Brimstone Field (though I did make a deck focused on Fangwood at one point).

For the Earthshaker. If you have a deck reliant on structures, it can apply so much pressure. A prime example of this is this game : https://solforgegame.com/forum/forum-games/casual_masa_halfhand-t4-rules-rematch-mahou86-vs-wolffgang/

My deck was reliant on Brimstone and Fleshfiends, and i had to take quite a bit of damage to protect my fields and even lost some. It just shows you some of the value of the shaker, though i agree it isn't the best at the moment.

 

grim2103

Forgeborn Mystic

Backer

Members
Forum Posts: 2712
Member Since:
January 3, 2013
Offline
February 6, 2013
7:47 pm
23

Noetherian said

grim2103 said 
@Hoywolf+Noetherian: I could go into a little more detail in the intro if you'd like. Fundamentally, it is cards that will most likely you win you the game for being played consistently that find themselves at higher tiers. Racecar0 did an excellent explanation basically spot on that I used for my list. I would only add to it that the more value you gain from a card, the higher it is ranked.

For a future update, I think a bit more detail in the intro would be helpful. In particular, I don't personally have a good understanding of the term "value" in the context of a SolForge. (This may be a term that is carried over from other TCGs, and I just don't have the right background … in particular, most the Magic articles that I have read were written a long time ago and so the terminology may have changed a bit.) In particular, what does it mean for a card "gain me value" (or how do I know if a card that I have played has "gained me value"). My apologies, if I am just a bit dense here.

You are right in value being a loosely defined term. I can't think of any hard definition for it in the sense in TCGs. However, it bares a general concept that any serious player in the Magic world (for example) understands. As a conceptual description, value is something that once it is said and done, leaves you better off than you were before. For example, if you enraged a denfensive Hydra, then on my turn I Cull it, then I have used one card for two of your cards. I have gained value by doing so. Your descriptions of Card Advantage, Rank Advantage, and Rank Distribution are all good examples of value.

Racecar0
Moderator
Members


Backer


Moderators
Forum Posts: 3420
Member Since:
August 25, 2012
Nestled somewhere deep within the Rocky Mountains.
Online
February 6, 2013
7:48 pm
24

grim2103 said  
Rumbling Earthshaker I still don't agree with, because he can't make a threat himself as effectively as other cards, and here I thought I was the only one who was obsessed with structures on the forums ;p. Most all my decks are focused on Brimstone Field (though I did make a deck focused on Fangwood at one point).

 

I love Earthshaker, regardless of his ability to take out structures (that's just gravy).  Just because his damage isn't large doesn't mean he's lacking an incredible amount of staying power.  He's a wily one to catch and an opponent is often actively trying to block him.  As a for instance, I place down an Earthshaker in Lane 2.  You block him.  I move to Lane 3 and deal you 3 damage leaving a different blocker in Lane 2 (potentially creating a more favorable trade).  You block him in Lane 3, but this time you deal him 4/5 damage (the average, I would say).  I move him again, down to Lane 4 and deal you another 3 damage.  I also drop a blocker in Lane 3, potentially creating another favorable trade (or ping that guy out of Lane 3 with a Magma Hound).  Now you get the choice.  Is it worthwhile to block the 3/2 creature? (Probably.) Or is it better to block one of the other threats that might have emerged.

This says nothing of the amazing damage Earthshaker can do in the same scenario at Level 2 where his stats are clearly misproportioned in comparison to Levels 1 and 3.  At Level 2, he survives most initial damage trades and comes out even quite a few creatures overall…


Forge Watch: SolForge News, Strategy, and Community Highlights
Always happy to accept Untimed challengers! IGN: Racecar0

grim2103

Forgeborn Mystic

Backer

Members
Forum Posts: 2712
Member Since:
January 3, 2013
Offline
February 6, 2013
7:55 pm
25

Hoywolf said

grim2103 said

@Hoywolf+Noetherian: I could go into a little more detail in the intro if you'd like. Fundamentally, it is cards that will most likely you win you the game for being played consistently that find themselves at higher tiers. Racecar0 did an excellent explanation basically spot on that I used for my list. I would only add to it that the more value you gain from a card, the higher it is ranked.

Yeah a little more detail would be nice :)

It makes it easier to understand the reasoning behind the placements. Or else I'll just be ranting off what should or shouldn't be on the list based on my own experience and observation.

So generally your saying that its cards that can win games consistently. If that is the case then more situational cards would be ranked lower?

  • One my first questioning would be for the Cull, it seems more like a situational card and should be ranked a bit lower, better when your going 2nd, useless if you dont level it up, doesnt work if your opponent has no creatures, etc.
  • Spark bot and Zombie Infantry, they may be plain, but they pass the vanilla test with flying colors, above avg atk and life at level 1/2. at worst they trade in 1 or 2 turns at best they can take down 2 cards (mostly the spark bot can because of his health) – that makes them pretty consistent.
  • I feel that the technosmith is ranked a bit high, maybe tier 2, looking at our T4 most players arent even alloyin (though the fact that the meta is the way it is because alloyin have a bit less cards that the rest).

I hope I'm not sounding harsh, I'd just like to discuss these type of things :)

 

ON Cull: It isn't as much as a situation card as others are, since it is universal removal if you level it. Hardly anything is effective if you don't level it. Cull is the best removal for the game, even though it only 1 for 1s (unless they did something like Enrage), it still provides you value in that it kills a creature that you wouldn't normally be able to kill (i.e. Chrogias, Dragon, Grimgaunt, Sentry, or Hydra).

On Vanillas: Then why aren't they played? Most all the main cards that are played kill Zombie Infantry, while doing another effect (i.e. Magma Hound), which is why he is lower than Spark Bot. For Spark Bot, even he gets 1 for 1'd with many cards such as Echowisp or Air Spirit. The problem with them is that early your opponent can do tricks with their ability cards such as Hound, burn your guy, and suddenly a really weak card can trade with yous, because your opponents cards have abilities, and yours do not.

On Technosmith: That is the closest reason I came to dropping him lower: the lack of prevalence of Alloyin in current decks. However, in the Alloyin decks that are played, you are probably playing Alloyin for this card because he gives you that much value. I probably could have ranked him near the bottom of tier 1 for now, and moved him up when more Alloyin cards a released, but the abilities on this card is just too much.

grim2103

Forgeborn Mystic

Backer

Members
Forum Posts: 2712
Member Since:
January 3, 2013
Offline
February 6, 2013
8:01 pm
26

Wolffgang said

grim2103 said

Thechynd said

I was surprised how low you rank grove huntress. Rather than thinking of it as a 4/3, 8/6, 12/10 creature that boosts something, I prefer to think of it as a 5/4, 11/9, 17/15 that has the option to donate some of its stats to other creatures if necessary. Once you get past rank 1 those are actually rather good stats. In particular, she provides an exception to your claim that a fangwooded hydra 2 has more health than any rank 2 creature's attack and with 9 health will even be able to survive against it. And when you do use her ability even +1/+1 can change the outcome of a battle (particularly if you and your opponent are playing some of the same cards) while +3/+3 can alter almost any battle between creatures of equal rank (excepting scorchmane 3, chrogias 3 and a well fed devourer).

I also think earthshaker is a better card than you give it credit for, though that may be due to me valuing structures more than you do. Move helps a lot, both for allowing you to threaten multiple structures at once so your opponent has a harder time protecting them all and for denying your opponent the ability to use its relatively low power to set up a favourable trade.

I agree with your Grove Huntress explanation, and I have undervalued with it, since I haven't playtested it much yet, and I haven't seen anyone else use it well in all the games I collected data for my previous article on the forums. I will consider this, and she will likely move up in the next update.

 

Rumbling Earthshaker I still don't agree with, because he can't make a threat himself as effectively as other cards, and here I thought I was the only one who was obsessed with structures on the forums ;p. Most all my decks are focused on Brimstone Field (though I did make a deck focused on Fangwood at one point).

For the Earthshaker. If you have a deck reliant on structures, it can apply so much pressure. A prime example of this is this game : https://solforgegame.com/forum/forum-games/casual_masa_halfhand-t4-rules-rematch-mahou86-vs-wolffgang/

My deck was reliant on Brimstone and Fleshfiends, and i had to take quite a bit of damage to protect my fields and even lost some. It just shows you some of the value of the shaker, though i agree it isn't the best at the moment.

While I still don't argue that he has strong circumstantial value, there isn't typically  a need for him to fulfill that role and when there is, he typically is unable to fulfill it. That is why he is so low. A deck playing Brimstones, for example, is a control deck (or it should be). The likelihood of a creature staying on the field against a control deck are smaller, and if it does, then the play slaps something like Volcanic Giant or Fleshfiend to defend the structure, and you suddenly don't have to worry about losing your structure since the Giant will die to the weaker creature due to the Brimstone burns.

The Brimstone decks is the one I have playtested the most against many things, and I have not found a deck that has been able to a reasonable amount of pressure on me through Earthshaker. They are always better off simply putting pressure on my life.

Hoywolf

Forgeborn Mystic

Backer

Members
Forum Posts: 1889
Member Since:
September 10, 2012
San Francisco
Offline
February 6, 2013
8:11 pm
27

grim2103 said

 

ON Cull: It isn't as much as a situation card as others are, since it is universal removal if you level it. Hardly anything is effective if you don't level it. Cull is the best removal for the game, even though it only 1 for 1s (unless they did something like Enrage), it still provides you value in that it kills a creature that you wouldn't normally be able to kill (i.e. Chrogias, Dragon, Grimgaunt, Sentry, or Hydra).

On Vanillas: Then why aren't they played? Most all the main cards that are played kill Zombie Infantry, while doing another effect (i.e. Magma Hound), which is why he is lower than Spark Bot. For Spark Bot, even he gets 1 for 1'd with many cards such as Echowisp or Air Spirit. The problem with them is that early your opponent can do tricks with their ability cards such as Hound, burn your guy, and suddenly a really weak card can trade with yous, because your opponents cards have abilities, and yours do not.

On Technosmith: That is the closest reason I came to dropping him lower: the lack of prevalence of Alloyin in current decks. However, in the Alloyin decks that are played, you are probably playing Alloyin for this card because he gives you that much value. I probably could have ranked him near the bottom of tier 1 for now, and moved him up when more Alloyin cards a released, but the abilities on this card is just too much.

 

Thanks for the follow up grim. I still think the vanilla are a bit higher up, they arent as good as echo or hound of course, but i think they are at least in the tier above them.

Either way this is your list, thanks for the explanations. :)

Forge Watch: SolForge News, Strategy, and Community Highlights
Follow us on Twitter and Like us on Facebook - In Game Name: Hoywolf

 

grim2103

Forgeborn Mystic

Backer

Members
Forum Posts: 2712
Member Since:
January 3, 2013
Offline
February 6, 2013
8:15 pm
28

Hoywolf said

grim2103 said

 

ON Cull: It isn't as much as a situation card as others are, since it is universal removal if you level it. Hardly anything is effective if you don't level it. Cull is the best removal for the game, even though it only 1 for 1s (unless they did something like Enrage), it still provides you value in that it kills a creature that you wouldn't normally be able to kill (i.e. Chrogias, Dragon, Grimgaunt, Sentry, or Hydra).

On Vanillas: Then why aren't they played? Most all the main cards that are played kill Zombie Infantry, while doing another effect (i.e. Magma Hound), which is why he is lower than Spark Bot. For Spark Bot, even he gets 1 for 1'd with many cards such as Echowisp or Air Spirit. The problem with them is that early your opponent can do tricks with their ability cards such as Hound, burn your guy, and suddenly a really weak card can trade with yous, because your opponents cards have abilities, and yours do not.

On Technosmith: That is the closest reason I came to dropping him lower: the lack of prevalence of Alloyin in current decks. However, in the Alloyin decks that are played, you are probably playing Alloyin for this card because he gives you that much value. I probably could have ranked him near the bottom of tier 1 for now, and moved him up when more Alloyin cards a released, but the abilities on this card is just too much.

 

Thanks for the follow up grim. I still think the vanilla are a bit higher up, they arent as good as echo or hound of course, but i think they are at least in the tier above them.

Either way this is your list, thanks for the explanations. :)

Sure sorry it took so long to reply. The vanillas may find themselves low Tier 4 or high Tier 5 when I see them played effectively to show me wrong, but I haven't seen it yet. Also, cull has a decent likelihood in the long term to do as you said and top tier 2 above Chrogias, but as of right now, I think they are in the right place.

 

SkyAnemone

Forgeborn Mystic
Members


Backer
Forum Posts: 2261
Member Since:
September 16, 2012
Offline
February 8, 2013
12:33 am
29

So, I think an important question to ask when making a tier list is, "what sort of decisions are the rankings useful for?" Without a firm answer to this question, the tier list is no more than a (highly subjective!) observation of the cards/champions/whatevs used by the most successful players. That's entertaining enough by itself, of course, and it can spawn useful discussions about particular cards, but it doesn't help otherwise uninformed players make better choices.

The great thing about the LoL tier lists is that each list specifies under what sort of circumstances you should use it, and when you do use them they enhance your game. For example, the competitive 5v5 tier list is (iirc) meant for premade 5v5 drafts between relatively skilled teams. If a player finds themselves in that situation, then it can greatly simplify their decision on which champion to master next.

Therefore, I believe this tier list would benefit from a similar explanation of its focus. Is the list a suggestion for cards to pick for drafts? Deck construction? Gameplay leveling? Something else entirely?

grim2103

Forgeborn Mystic

Backer

Members
Forum Posts: 2712
Member Since:
January 3, 2013
Offline
February 9, 2013
6:06 am
30

Very good point Seoman, and I think that is the bush we have beating around for quite some time.

This is designed for Constructed Decks. I may make a list later for more formats as they are released, but for now the only serious format we can play is 1v1 constructed (on the forums).

We have been able to touch around in draft, however, that is ineffective at best.

Finally, as more formats are released, count on me renaming the list to reflect the format, and count on more lists coming out (more than likely at least).

SkyAnemone

Forgeborn Mystic
Members


Backer
Forum Posts: 2261
Member Since:
September 16, 2012
Offline
February 10, 2013
11:28 pm
31

(Psst, were you responding to me, Grim? I believe Seo has not (yet) put in a comment.)

grim2103

Forgeborn Mystic

Backer

Members
Forum Posts: 2712
Member Since:
January 3, 2013
Offline
February 10, 2013
11:54 pm
32

Yes, sorry about that.

grim2103

Forgeborn Mystic

Backer

Members
Forum Posts: 2712
Member Since:
January 3, 2013
Offline
March 13, 2013
12:46 pm
33

New update! There's a new update to the Tier list including the four newest cards! The quick-link is in my signature for ease of access!

Beelzebozo

Forgeborn
Members


Backer
Forum Posts: 103
Member Since:
February 15, 2013
Offline
March 13, 2013
12:48 pm
34

My cow-orkers and I are poring over this now, and it has already provoked some debate. Thanks for writing!

grim2103

Forgeborn Mystic

Backer

Members
Forum Posts: 2712
Member Since:
January 3, 2013
Offline
March 13, 2013
1:22 pm
35

Sure! I'm happy to stir up some conversation!

artrexdenthur

Forgeborn Elder
Members


Backer
Forum Posts: 521
Member Since:
September 17, 2012
College Station, TX, USA
Offline
March 13, 2013
2:30 pm
36

Very nice article, grim! I really wish the shapers deserved to be higher rated, but I definitely agree that their usefulness is limited, especially in the context of Alloyin rapid-leveling. Also, I keep wanting to say that ferocious roar is more powerful than tier four, but it can't be denied that its one-time use (as opposed to relatively permanent fangwood) makes it tricky to use advantageously. 

EldrosKandar

Forgeborn Mystic
Members


Backer
Forum Posts: 1530
Member Since:
August 1, 2012
Bretten, Germany
Offline
March 14, 2013
1:48 am
37

I really think that Roar should be at least a Tier higher. I've used it and have it used against me to great effect, and not only in A/U decks. The fact that it spreads the buffing is quite important, and can be taken advantage to mess with the combat math of the opponent, even with only two creatures. But I guess it's really open for debat.

But otherwise great article, very spot on.

You can call me Eldros. Feel free to send me untimed challenge at EldrosKandar for pseudo phantom draft. (List of test drafters)
----- 
The Soul Harvest draft deck is ready, you can see the deck I drafted. Try to guess which record I'll have in What's the pick? (Last update - 2014-03-28)
----- 
PTKTempo is the winner of the Asynchronous Initiative, the first asynchronous tournament, which was hosted by Evolution888 and yours truly! Stay tuned for more asynchronous action.
----- 
There was once a dream... Maybe it will be revived? See Alternative League (article by mnmike2002).

SeomanReborn

Forgeborn Elder
Members


Backer
Forum Posts: 1437
Member Since:
August 27, 2012
United States
Offline
March 14, 2013
7:51 am
38

I think a good and reasonable question you should ask about a card is "If I could play a 30 cards deck with mostly this card, would I win most the time) and if the answer is Yes then it belongs in tier 1. A example? Forgeplate Sentinel. I don't understand why it's listed as tier 3. This card only trades with 4 creatures at level 2. Dragon, Earthshaker, Vengful Spirit, and Magma Hound (Only if Forge is on offensive). It has absolutely no unfavorable trades. Level 3 Only Dragon / Chrogias go over the top, and only Vengeful Spirit, Electro Bot, and Magma (Once again, only if Forge is on offensive) can trade with it. Buffing it makes it nearly unstoppable. Must have Cull or lose the game type of status.

There were children cryin' and color flyin' all around the Chosen Ones.

All in a dream, all...in a dream...

Beelzebozo

Forgeborn
Members


Backer
Forum Posts: 103
Member Since:
February 15, 2013
Offline
March 14, 2013
7:59 am
39

SeomanReborn said

I think a good and reasonable question you should ask about a card is "If I could play a 30 cards deck with mostly this card, would I win most the time) and if the answer is Yes then it belongs in tier 1. A example? Forgeplate Sentinel. I don't understand why it's listed as tier 3. This card only trades with 4 creatures at level 2. Dragon, Earthshaker, Vengful Spirit, and Magma Hound (Only if Forge is on offensive). It has absolutely no unfavorable trades. Level 3 Only Dragon / Chrogias go over the top, and only Vengeful Spirit, Electro Bot, and Magma (Once again, only if Forge is on offensive) can trade with it. Buffing it makes it nearly unstoppable. Must have Cull or lose the game type of status.

Wow, that's an incredible point slash way of looking at things. I will probably remember that for the rest of the time I spend with this game.

Noetherian
Moderator
Members


Backer


Moderators
Forum Posts: 6133
Member Since:
September 10, 2012
Offline
March 14, 2013
8:13 am
40

SeomanReborn said
I think a good and reasonable question you should ask about a card is "If I could play a 30 cards deck with mostly this card, would I win most the time) and if the answer is Yes then it belongs in tier 1. A example? Forgeplate Sentinel. I don't understand why it's listed as tier 3. This card only trades with 4 creatures at level 2. Dragon, Earthshaker, Vengful Spirit, and Magma Hound (Only if Forge is on offensive). It has absolutely no unfavorable trades. Level 3 Only Dragon / Chrogias go over the top, and only Vengeful Spirit, Electro Bot, and Magma (Once again, only if Forge is on offensive) can trade with it. Buffing it makes it nearly unstoppable. Must have Cull or lose the game type of status.

I personally agree with Seoman that Forgeplate Sentry (Note: Sentry not Sentinel) is a stronger card than the Tier List indicates.

I also think the "deck with 30 copies of this card" is a useful thought experiment (this has come up in other threads). Although I think that a card which does well in a deck containing only that card should likely be in Tier 1 or 2, I think that the converse is not true. That is, just because a card does poorly when there are 30 (or nearly 30) copies of the card in a deck doesn't mean the card is weak. In particular, a deck containing only (or almost entirely) structures or spells will generally do poorly, but that does not mean that structures and spells are all weak. (It just means that you don't currently want to play a deck with 25+ structures or spells)

Check out this year's Competitive Forge Watch Events!
The Next Forge Watch Qualifying Tournament is the Weekend of May 2/3/4

In addition to organizing competitive events, I also write articles on SolForge fundamentals.

Forum Timezone: America/Los_Angeles

Most Users Ever Online: 396

Currently Online: KrisP, Racecar0, LordMagnus, Mong0, Abbadon, Kvothe1, CrimsonMirage, Regalian3, ElMuerto, Nlim, aboltris, blinvisible, Nimzo-Indian, MightyThor, Crono2, Tjesse, UNCsamurai, TurTle2
51 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

grim2103: 2711

CerebralPaladin: 2514

SkyAnemone: 2225

Johnny C: 2211

Hoywolf: 1863

LordMagnus: 1635

EldrosKandar: 1501

Pion: 1500

SeomanReborn: 1366

mnmike2002: 1189

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 2

Members: 146122

Moderators: 7

Admins: 19

Forum Stats:

Groups: 1

Forums: 11

Topics: 6748

Posts: 100572

Newest Members: James9, ragequitter, SansTestecles, baabas1, gabekarl, Craigen, Jason9, holyburger, Benkenobi10, Julsmul2

Moderators: Racecar0 (3338), Noetherian (5771), Kit (1117), philgapp (0), aallan (0), David_SBE (5), Justin Gary (3)